a (00:00)
Hey y'all. Welcome back to Rebelling.

In this conversation, Erin and I get into why accepting help feels so uncomfortable. We wonder where we learn to push our own needs aside, and how being independent can sometimes be less of a choice and more like a survival strategy. We talk about growing up feeling like our needs are too much, getting really good at taking care of everyone else, and what happens when we start to believe that needing help makes us a burden.

Or somehow less capable.

Society can turn help and care into a moral hierarchy. Good people give help. Bad people need help. So needing help isn't experienced as neutral. It becomes evidence about someone's character. And once something is moralized, it becomes so much harder to simply experience it. You can't just need help.

You have to manage what needing help says about you.

We also explore how help can actually become more work when it comes with unsolicited advice, judgment, or someone deciding what you need fixed instead of listening to what you're saying and how you're saying it.

At the heart of this conversation are two questions we're still figuring out. What does it take to trust our own needs? And how can we let other people help and care for us without feeling like we're bad or asking too much? Here's my conversation with Erin

Amy (01:58)
I'm going backpacking and so I have to

I'd have to have a I have an air porter like to put my big ass backpack in. And so Jonathan was like, Do you you have a lock or do you want an air tag for that? And I was like, my god, yes, I do. I wanna be able to lock it because all of my backpacking equipment, which is very expensive, is in there. yeah. And

An air tag is a genius idea. Will you please go get me those things? So he's like, Will you send me a picture of the zipper and how big the holes are so that I can know what's how big the lock can be? yes, I I will absolutely do that.

But it's it's so

My first instinct was to tell him no no, don't worry about it.

Don't worry about going to get that stuff for me. Or no, that's okay. I don't need it.

Erin (03:09)
Mmmhmm

Amy (03:13)
But I really want it.

And so I feel I feel as proud of myself for saying yes, please, will you please go get me these things as you feel about your shower this morning? Yeah.

Erin (03:26)
So

Amy (03:27)
Congratulations.

Erin (03:30)
Look at

Amy (03:32)
I asked for some help. Dun dun dun.

Erin (03:34)
And then follow through accepting

help. Wow.

Amy (03:43)
Why is it easier to just be like, never mind, I don't I don't want to meet my need?

Erin (03:52)
I wonder if it has something to do with

Our needs not being met in, you know, some really important developmental phases. We

Amy (04:05)
Uh-huh.

Erin (04:06)
had to kind of figure it out on our own, right? Like, okay, I'm not gonna get help with this. so I'm gonna figure out a way to do it. May not serve me in adulthood as much, but I'm gonna now create this idea that it's my needs are not gonna be met.

If I ask for help.

Amy (04:33)
Is it uncomfortable for you to have your needs met?

Erin (04:37)
Amy, I don't even know if I really know what my needs are.

It's it's when you gave that example of the

the lock. I I was thinking how I kind of vacillate between the idea because I don't know how accurate the idea is, but of being too dependent and too independent. And there's a sweet spot of interdependence that I'm aiming for because we are not meant to do it all on our own.

And we're also not meant to just collapse into dependency. But I think this comes from not really understanding that it's okay to need help or have needs or have your needs met.

Amy (05:37)
Mm-hmm. I I agree. And it's interesting. I never really thought about it in that quite in that way.

And for some reason I remember getting complimented on how independent I am, how strong I am, how capable I am.

Erin (06:03)
Yeah. Relatable.

Amy (06:07)
And it feels like

I well, I had to be because my needs were not met. My needs were a problem when I was little. it's I mean, and I think both of my parents are neurodivergent. So I understand why, but the same time it doesn't change that they weren't met.

Erin (06:34)
Yeah.

Amy (06:36)
And I wonder

If it has anything to do with being adultified as a child.

Erin (06:48)
That makes so much sense.

Amy (06:51)
So that you just kind of have to figure it out.

Erin (06:59)
Yeah, because you grew up and survived and thrived or looked like you were thriving, right?

I f I feel like I wanna go so many directions. I know.

Amy (07:17)
I'm having trouble too.

Erin (07:21)
But in the example of just letting someone help you who offered to help you and who's happy to help you, and then you're like, oof.

it becomes apparent that there was a a skill or and or belief, you know, a skill that wasn't created, like understanding your needs and meeting them, letting other people meet them. And then a a belief that it's like, I don't know what it is. For me, it's like it's you're too much, you need too much, your needs make me uncomfortable, all of that.

That becomes apparent in adulthood and you're like, Hmm.

How did that happen?

Amy (08:12)
Yeah. I recognize that from the time that I was that I was really little is that my needs were a problem. I was too much, asking too much, too sensitive, too

What I needed was unrealistic.

Erin (08:32)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like unreasonable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Amy (08:36)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Which I mean, I'm thinking about unreasonable being

you know, you fall down and get hurt and cry and you want someone to soothe you and care for you. And that was unreasonable.

Erin (09:00)
Right, right. Unreasonable according to who?

Amy (09:04)
Right. But then when you pull like when I pull it back even further, so then because I'm dysregulated, then my mom's dysregulated. Sure. And then she doesn't know what to do. And so you have these two dysregulated people, me the child, her the adult. So it was her responsibility.

Erin (09:29)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (09:31)
But also she didn't get that, right? So she doesn't know how to deal with it.

Erin (09:36)
So adult is a pretty loose term when we're talking about our our undiagnosed, neurodivergent, emotionally immature parents who didn't get what they needed. And who knows how far down the line they didn't get what they needed, right? So it's just like generations of

this messaging landing on you the the actual child who are and you're you're trying to develop right like yeah

Amy (10:12)
And to feel like

I I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but a lot of what I notice is people have a hard time making things the right size.

So

And not wanting to be a burden.

Erin (10:37)
Yeah, yeah.

Amy (10:39)
Or I just don't wanna, you know, I don't want anybody to have to go out of their way for me. It's just better if I do it myself.

But then we also love to help people.

Erin (10:56)
It's almost let me know if this how this lands for you. For me, it's like very disportionate.

Amy (11:06)
Yes.

Erin (11:06)
Disproportionate. Disproportionate. Yeah. Yeah. It's like I really want to help everyone. I mean, in the store, I'm like, you look like you might be struggling with something. Let me jump in and help. I've gotten way better about that, but.

It's this radar of I I need to help.

And the the other side is like, but I can't ask for help for myself or I can't be a burden. And how are we deciding what's a burden?

Amy (11:40)
Yeah.

Because

to be so tuned to wanting to help and so just aware, hyper hyper vigilant

Erin (12:00)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (12:01)
in in the environment, watching for where should I step in? Where should I I should be quieter or not I don't want to say that or

I'm cold but it doesn't look like anybody else's, so I'll just be cold. I won't I'm not gonna say anything 'cause I don't want to cause a problem.

Erin (12:25)
Yeah.

Amy (12:28)
And that just the the the weird duality of

wanting to take care at the same time rejecting care.

Erin (12:45)
No.

Amy (12:45)
help is really uncomfortable for me. Care is really uncomfortable. It makes me feel like like it's like a bad taste or something. Or if you have

the same, you know, batteries that boo

Erin (13:08)
I felt that. Yeah. Yeah.

Amy (13:11)
Like, don't.

How can it be how can it 'cause it feels like two sides of the same coin to me?

Erin (13:20)
Mm, mm.

If what you learned was that you were complimented for being so strong and independent and smart and capable, all the things.

What is the other side of that? Must not be good.

Amy (13:50)
It's a moralization of care.

Erin (13:55)
Ooh, I love that.

Yeah, a moralization of care.

Yeah, it's like how we struggle to see our value if we're not producing.

Amy (14:17)
Yeah, good people give help. Bad people need help.

Erin (14:21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Amy (14:32)
So

We abandon ourselves, maybe n partially because of our early childhood experiences, but also there's so much messaging around

Socially.

Like people who need help are a problem. Right. They're taking up time. They're making things go slower.

Erin (15:10)
Because why? Because they need care. And that's irrelevant, right? It's it's not a value. What is valuable is production.

I just watched this documentary called someone sent it to me. And I don't I don't really even know why I watched it last night, but it was about it was called the brainwashing of my father.

And it was about

This woman's dad who started listening to he was like a Democrat in the 60s or 70s. And then in the 80s, he started listening to Rush Limbaugh or Conservative Talk Radio, and then started watching Fox News and became completely different in his worldview. And just his personality changed.

And she had all of these people on who had the same experience with their parents.

but that is the messaging, right? He started saying he he was a very kind man. He was, you know, she had all these videotapes of him as a dad doing and saying kind things. And then he started just getting this brainwashing, messaging, immersing himself in it. And then his worldview changed to what we're talking about, like.

People who need help are, you shouldn't need help.

Right.

your drain on society. And of course it was particular groups and it's an intentional message. So it's not an accident.

Amy (17:21)
I wonder if it's particular to American culture.

Erin (17:29)
It really seems to be.

Amy (17:35)
I would be really curious to to know what help is like in other countries.

Because it feels very American to.

not be a burden. You can't you handle it on your own, like individualization. Look

Erin (18:02)
at our icons like John Wayne and the cowboy and you know you don't need anyone you just take care of your family with your yourself you don't need anyone you just like are totally self-sufficient

Amy (18:23)
This is gonna bear us off into a different but it's interesting too because there's the individualization that also I think religion can play a part in too. Because I'm not gonna I'm not gonna count on other people, I'm gonna count on God or Jesus or whoever.

Erin (18:48)
Mm.

Amy (18:50)
And I wonder if that too is a particular of American religious life.

Erin (18:58)
I wonder too. I wonder too. I definitely think it's a thread in this tapestry of

Individualism.

Amy (19:18)
Yeah, what are the influences of it?

What are the influences of the moralization and individualization of care?

Erin (19:36)
I think capitalism is a big one and that's that's not just in the United States, but

It's definitely a hallmark of the United States.

Amy (19:54)
I agree. Capitalism, white supremacy.

It because if you get

If you get help you feel supported.

Erin (20:17)
Do you?

I wanna push back on this a little because we were, I don't know that I do. I feel

Like I don't deserve it, or I didn't earn it, or I'm a burden, you know.

Amy (20:39)
Which is why you need that belief.

Not you, but like the royal the

Erin (20:50)
Collected.

Amy (20:50)
The collective you.

Ostensibly help fe feels supportive unless you moralize it.

Erin (21:04)
There you go.

Amy (21:07)
And make it

A personal failing.

To need help

Erin (21:16)
Right, right. Like other cultures.

don't even question help. Like it's not even a thing that one would think about.

Yeah.

Amy (21:36)
Wow.

Erin (21:42)
Moralization of care.

Amy (21:46)
Because if if you discover that you need help, but needing help is bad, so then you have to try to figure it out on your own.

And you become more and more isolated and less and less trusting of the people around you and then of society as a whole.

And then you start seeing other people as

bad, which then creates division because if then you need you need other people who are like you to build an identity on.

Does that make sense? Yeah.

Erin (22:42)
It it does make sense.

Amy (22:49)
Cause to me help is is

It's an action. It's not an identity. It it it doesn't have

It doesn't have a race or religion or it's

I don't know. Also, I wonder if help is is a human construct.

Erin (23:17)
Yeah.

Yeah, so of course we moralize it. You know what I'm thinking? I just started yesterday with a new therapist who is AuDHD specific. I was so excited. I felt like

In going to a therapist who didn't understand autism and ADHD, I I didn't know what I didn't know until I saw this person yesterday and I felt like I'd been going to a vet when I continued to be going to a doctor. Like the vet could, you know, see like they could prescribe antibiotics for an infection, you know, like they could generally help.

But this was like, my gosh, this is the help I've been needing. And it took me over a year after my diagnosis to actually accept help, the right kind of help. Shoot, I was going somewhere with this, Amy, and I lost it. what were we talking about? Help is an action.

Amy (24:46)
As a human construct,

Erin (24:51)
Right, because okay, but I am in a a position of privilege in that I can afford to go to a therapist right now. the right therapist for me, right? I'm not depending on

I'm paying out of pocket and so I don't have to rely on insurance to give me a limited list of people I can see.

That is a very human thing where, you know, we like it's a commodity. Health is a commodity. Yes.

Amy (25:32)
Yes, yes.

That's how do you sp commodity? Okay. Yeah. Help is not so help isn't a human construct, but the instructions around help are.

Erin (25:57)
Right. Like we've made it, we've moralized it, we've commodified it.

Amy (26:02)
Mm-hmm.

Erin (26:04)
We've

stigmatized it.

Amy (26:07)
Yes, yes.

Erin (26:09)
Right. we've we've really like made it.

difficult to help each other, you know, even thinking of like living in a neighborhood, what is my role as a fellow citizen to what are my actions of helpfulness just as a person in the world?

Amy (26:40)
And what am I allowed to help with? Sure.

Erin (26:43)
Mm.

Amy (26:45)
permission the permission to help.

Erin (26:50)
Yeah.

Amy (26:55)
I'm thinking about trash day where, you could see that the can had been empty, but something had obviously just fallen off and was on the ground. And I was like, Well, I could pick that up, but I don't I don't want to bother it because what if, you know, all of the

listserve messages about don't put your dog poop in my trash can put it in your own trash can if you're out for a walk and my trash can's at the curb don't put poop in it because that's not your trash can it's like okay so I'm just gonna leave and that it sat there for a couple of days and so I'm walking by I'm just not I'm not gonna touch it

Erin (27:41)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (27:42)
Because I don't want to what if I don't know, what if it's not theirs and then they don't want it in their tri There's so many things where we don't we don't reach into each other's space because shit, well what if I'm helping wrong?

Erin (28:04)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Amy (28:16)
it makes more and more sense that we don't that we would rather just

push ourselves to the side than even be seen having a need or be obvious about having a need. It makes me wonder, what assumption has to do with

Help and needs too.

Erin (28:46)
Mm-hmm. Man, wow. Something that just like flared up in me is I really hate unsolicited advice.

Amy (29:00)
I really hate it. Same.

Erin (29:04)
It's not that I think I know everything. I don't. And if I want help, I'll ask for it, which how I don't know how true that is. But

Just it's it is someone coming into my space and telling me, there's an element of doing it wrong.

Amy (29:28)
huh.

Erin (29:28)
well, you're not doing it right. So let me tell you how to do it when I didn't ask for help. Makes me think of the trash.

Like it was there for a couple of days. And it's it's like you're judging not you, but well that should be in the trash can. So I'm gonna do that. There's there's so much

Should

Amy (29:58)
Yeah, and and shame.

Erin (30:00)
And shame. yeah.

Amy (30:04)
Because I I totally relate to what you're saying about I don't I don't like unsolic I don't like unsolicited advice, but it's not that I don't want to hear what people think or what they ideas that they have.

It's more around the fact of

feeling like they're missing what I'm actually talking about.

Erin (30:37)
Yes.

Or why you're talking about it. Yeah. Maybe I'm just saying, like, this is like the shower. You didn't say, well, because earlier we're talking about like sometimes it's just really hard to take a shower. And here are the reasons I've thought of you didn't jump in and say, well, here's what you need to do.

That was really nice. I was just saying this is hard for me. And you met me saying I get it.

Amy (31:11)
Okay. Yes, yes.

Which is kind of a rejection of your experience.

Erin (31:24)
Totally.

Amy (31:26)
my God, and you don't know what you're doing is like one of my hugest wounds that I carry around. And so when someone starts giving me advice when they aren't understanding what it feels really dismissive and also

I'm not looking for a solution. I

Erin (31:54)
Don't you think I've tried all the solutions? You know, but it's like also, is that someone's idea of help?

Amy (32:06)
And then how we get married to the idea of our help being the right way. And so then if you don't do it that way, then you're doing it the wrong way.

Which to me is it relates to clarity around

being able to in communication be clear about what you need.

Erin (32:44)
There go. Back to it. Yeah. How do you do that if you don't know what you need? Cause you've been trying to just like figure it out on your own your whole life.

Amy (32:55)
So instead of being like, I have the answer, I'm gonna tell you. I'm I'm I got it. Be like, what do you actually need help with here? Do you need help with this?

Erin (33:08)
Yeah. Yeah. Do you do you just need me to listen?

Amy (33:16)
Or even being able to relate to someone and being able to say, my God, I totally understand. showers for me are I hate them. It's such a it's such a big task to take on. But what if I loved showers?

Erin (33:34)
Right.

Amy (33:35)
And so then

I love showers. What is it you don't like about right? It's the individualization because then you're in your container not liking showers. And if I did like them, I would be in my container liking them. And so then it becomes this like, well, now we're sort of in this invisible competition to see who's right about showers instead of wow, that's so interesting because I love them and you don't.

Erin (34:08)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (34:09)
It it's more like, well, I love them. Have you ever tried hanging eucalyptus in your shower? Because maybe that will

Like, wait, no, you just I'm just sharing myself with you. It doesn't it's it's an it's an it's a nothing.

Erin (34:27)
Right. Right.

so huge, right? It's like

When you're met in that way and there's no demand placed on you to to change how you feel about showers or do it differently or even the assumption, right? It's like everything.

Amy (34:58)
It's almost like it when you talk about stuff and assuming that people are talking about it because they need you to help them with it.

Erin (35:07)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (35:09)
So it's not just having just a conversation that can be just a conversation. It goes back to that commodity of what value are we going to pull from this exchange? And can I provide value for you? Can you provide value for me? Right. And how valuable being helpful is.

Thinking about in school where it's like, who's the teacher's helper? Who's the one who's you're so helpful? Yeah.

Erin (35:50)
Yeah.

Amy (35:52)
Which was not me, just to be honest.

that is so interesting.

Erin (36:05)
We've done a number on help. No wonder we're so divided and isolated.

Amy (36:14)
And that it's so difficult to be

Willing to to say hey, can you help me with this?

Erin (36:28)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (36:29)
Because then that turns into

It being shaped by the other person and their version of the help that you need. That can happen sometimes too. Mm-hmm.

Erin (36:50)
Yeah, yeah. And how does that reflect on your relationship? How does that build your relationship? the structure of it, Is it then this dynamic where one person is the helper and you're you're the one who needs help? And it's also it also becomes transactional.

Amy (37:14)
Mm-hmm.

And thinking about

I'm thinking about two things. One, how if people if people love you and care about you, they know what you need.

Without you having to ask. there's this big romantic idea around that with romantic relationships or partnerships, also in friendships, also with pretty much every kind of relationship. Yeah.

And then there's the the part about people knowing better than you what you actually want.

Erin (37:59)
I think that is a big one. And I can see that coming from not knowing.

Why for me it's like

I didn't know why I was having a different experience of the world as a kid or why

Things seem to affect me that didn't affect other people. Like your example of well, no one else looks cold, so I guess I just won't say anything,

So then of course, for me, I feel like a handed over authority of my life, my experience to other people, of course they would know better than me. I'm obviously not experiencing the world correctly.

Amy (38:56)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. And so then no, my God. This connects to also just that.

I wrote about this about how, of course you become a, forty, fifty year old person who doesn't know what you want for dinner because when you're little, you're told all the time, I'm not I'm not cold. I don't want to wear a coat. It's winter. You wear a coat in the winter. Okay. So my system doesn't that happens over and over again. yeah, I just don't like broccoli. Yes, you do. It's a vegetable. It's good for you.

Uh-huh. Okay, I guess I do like I'm gonna get in trouble if I don't all right.

It makes me wonder how you learn to retune your system into what you actually need so that you can be clear about it. And it doesn't feel like you're being a problem if you say something like.

yeah, if you can get me a go macro bar from the store and then someone comes home with, well I got you this other kind because it was on sale and blah, blah, blah. Like, no, but that's not what I want.

Erin (40:32)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Amy (40:37)
Mm.

Erin (40:40)
Yeah, how do you stop repressing and suppressing? I get those two confused, but it there's been a constant repression of our knowing of ourselves. I don't like broccoli and I'm not cold to

No, this isn't what I I wanted. This isn't the protein bar I wanted. I think and I guess I'm experiencing all the emotions that come up with actually saying what you need and what I think those are what have been, you know, pushed down, neutralized.

And now it's like,

There are feelings here that have to feel to have needs.

Amy (41:36)
that we're on the same page because that's I'm thinking the same thing. the amount of labor that goes in like help is supposed to help lightens the load. If we're care if you're carrying something and I come over and I'm like, let me help you and then I take part of it, that means that I have I have lightened your load.

But often for me, asking for help means that I'm have to do more work.

Erin (42:10)
Yes, yes.

Yeah.

Amy (42:23)
think we're gonna have to keep talking about this.

Erin (42:25)
I do too. I do too. Yeah.

Amy (42:28)
There's a lot of stuff tangled in here.

But the emotion around it and not being seen, not being taken seriously, like what you were saying about the emotion and it just makes me think about how it hurts to not be taken ser so you have to let me push that down because

Then it's more work for the other person and I don't want to impinge on them. So now I'm gonna like I'll just take so it kind of slingshot it boomerangs back at you. I can't

I just think about how how many times I've been like, I need help with this and then it's totally backfired.

and turned into a fight or gone sideways or just not

not been t like, you don't actually know what you want, so I'm gonna

Erin (43:38)
Yeah. And what you just said made me think of the ableism that comes up where and it's like you shouldn't need help with that. Look how capable you are in this area or at this. You can you can do this. Why can't you do that? And then it's like, ugh, why can't I? Internalize ableism to it's so then it's like you don't get the help you you actually do need.

And you're like, I don't really want to ask for that again.

Amy (44:11)
And feel that shame again?

Erin (44:13)
Shame again.

Amy (44:15)
And so I just have to I guess I just have to suck it up. Yeah.

All right, we're gonna we're gonna put a pen in it pin and we'll we'll talk about it again.

I had no clue that there were so many. It makes me want to make one of those mind maps, kind of like put help in the middle and then put all of the things off to the side. Yeah.

Erin (44:44)
It's

Amy (44:46)
Okay, now I'm gonna stop it. Okay, stop.

a (44:54)
Thanks for taking the time to listen to Rebelling. Looking forward to seeing you next time.