a (00:05)
Hey y'all, welcome back to Rebelling. Back in June, I started doing something called Rebelling Study Hall. And it was just a place to talk about things we were curious about, ask questions and follow ideas around, and see where we ended up. We met on Saturday mornings on Zoom, and one person came. And her name is Erin. She came to Study Hall regularly.

And after our third or fourth really great conversation, one of us said, I wish we'd recorded that. I want to listen to it again. And so the next time we started recording them. And I wondered, maybe we could share them on the podcast. And so I asked Erin if she'd be okay with that. And she said yes. And so here we are.

So over the next several episodes, I'm going to share our conversations with you. In the first one, we're talking about what adult means. We wonder about rules and norms and ways we constrict our self-expression and control our environments. We talk about forms of control, social monoculture, the ways we learn, the what's right and what's wrong, the boxes we try to fit into.

And what we've been changing about how we see ourselves and the world. Here's my conversation with Erin

Erin (01:41)
I was having this conversation yesterday about

Going back to adulting or being an adult and the idea of what it meant to be an adult was like from a 50s sitcom, right? It's just like buttoned down, well it's in black and white. There's no color. everyone has their role, their prescribed role, and everyone looks generally the same or has the same

job. So you're like, if you're a man, you're this. If you're a woman, you're this. If you're a kid, you're this. And I just got my first what prompted the discussion was like, I just got my first squishmallow. Do you know what a squish mallow? yeah.

Amy (02:30)
One of

Erin (02:31)
cool. It took me so, so long to get one because of my

Conditioning around what it means to be an adult. And I was sitting on a call the other night with this like scratchy couch pillow that was making me miserable. I could not get comfortable. And someone else on the call had like a weighted giraffe that smelled like lavender and oats. And I was like, please, can I give myself permission to get that? Yes. What am I doing? Because I'm like, no, this is.

This is how you are a grown-up and this is how you should be in the world. And it's even though I know that it's not accurate or it doesn't work for me, it's so tough to break out of that.

Prescription.

Amy (03:25)
It's so funny too because like

That just sounded so good. Like, I have a big weighted giraffe and it smells like lavender and oats. What does that have to do with being a grown up at all?

Erin (03:41)
What does it have to do with being grown up? It's

What is it?

Yeah.

Amy (03:54)
When you were talking about the prescribed like black and white and here's, you know, leave it to Beaver is the first thing I thought of.

Erin (04:02)
Exactly.

Amy (04:02)
Is like, here comes, you know, Dad with his briefcase rolling in the door in his suit. Meanwhile, you know, June's been like Ward's been at the office all day, and June's like in her little she's been a dress all day, perfectly fixed.

Erin (04:21)
And heels cooking.

Amy (04:23)
All day.

Erin (04:27)
Yeah.

Amy (04:28)
What the hell?

Erin (04:32)
Yeah, it's it's like the opposite of comfort or not comfort necessarily, but like what feels good to you.

Amy (04:47)
Kind of like form over f function.

Erin (04:49)
Yeah, yeah.

Amy (04:52)
And can it be?

Like I think that that the the control thing is like, if it looks like this, then so like if you're an adult with a weighted giraffe, like that doesn't look like what we're taught an adult is.

Erin (05:16)
Right.

Amy (05:18)
Which makes me think like, yeah, adults don't g get comfort.

Erin (05:25)
Right. Or accommodations, right? Mm-hmm. This person was a psychotherapist who had her camera off. and then was like, you know what, I'm gonna try turning my camera off. And that's when we got to see her giraffe. But more than just seeing the giraffe, it was like seeing someone accommodate themselves so they could be on this call. however they needed to be. It was

Powerful.

Yeah.

Amy (05:58)
will never forget that I was I can't even remember what I was doing with and I can't remember the name of the group now. God, why can't I remember the name of it? it's it was something with Marta

Erin (06:17)
Design yeah, yeah, yeah. Design studios, yes.

Amy (06:21)
Yes, but I will never forget it was the first time in one of our meetings that I ever saw another adult in front of me rocking.

Erin (06:33)
Mm.

Amy (06:35)
And I do it all the time.

But not in front of people.

Because it's just like, this is how I deal with being in the world. And so, you know, I've got my desk chair that rocks, but I usually don't rock when I'm in a meeting because like so I just have my little fidget in my hand instead. So it's not distracting.

Erin (07:00)
Right control. Right.

Amy (07:04)
Because adults don't fidget. Adults don't need to rock while they talk. Like adults just

Sit and listen.

Erin (07:15)
Yeah, and perform.

Amy (07:21)
It was so interesting too to witness and just be like wow.

And then to sort of observe the other people on their screens in the in the Zoom and like nobody looks disturb like nobody is looking like

What's going on here?

Erin (07:45)
Yeah.

It's so internalized, right?

Amy (07:51)
Yeah, that's why it's like we're so good at self policing.

Erin (07:54)
Yeah, we are. Yeah. I mean, we learn that from an early age.

Amy (08:02)
Right, ps sit still. Don't

Okay, Erin this is something I think about all the time. Little kids are always running places. And also just blurting things out.

Without a care.

Erin (08:23)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (08:26)
But then grown ups don't run around anywhere. if you're excited to go to a thing, you're not running up to the door like a little kid, right? You're like, no, I'm just

How fun it would be if we were actually able to show what we were feeling.

Erin (08:50)
Yeah.

Amy (08:51)
Like with our in not just with words, but with our whole bodies.

Erin (08:57)
Yeah, you know, when you said that, what came up for me was I think that words are not my first choice of expression. My body as a whole is more

That's that's interesting. Like 10 things just came up because I was thinking about being embodied and how that's just kind of

beaten out of us. Not not like

Not intentionally, I guess, but

I think for the sake of control, you can't live that way and and not be judged. You can't live running up to doors or expressing your joy with your whole body. You start measuring yourself, right? And then you just express yourself with words, measured words, the right words.

Yeah, when really I think that still lives in us, that joy our natural ways of our expressing ourselves, but we start just controlling ourselves so much to fit.

Amy (10:22)
It's like self expression is

It's there's such a limited

acceptable range of

self expression.

Erin (10:43)
Yeah, the right way to express yourself.

Amy (10:53)
But how fun it would be if we were able to be more 'cause like

If words weren't our first cho first and only choice of expression, really.

Erin (11:06)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (11:09)
I think about a lot too how animals just kind of roll on each other.

Erin (11:15)
Yeah.

Amy (11:16)
I mean, and how intimate it is. You know, they just walk up what's your butt smell like? Okay, what's going on with you? This is how I get my information from you is your smell, or we roll around with each other, what's our energy like together?

Erin (11:31)
Yeah. Or we get mad at each other. Yeah. You know, we s we set boundaries. Like, I get it.

Amy (11:40)
Yeah, I watch my cats do it all the time.

Erin (11:43)
Day.

Amy (11:45)
what's going on? nope. Back up. all right.

Erin (11:50)
Yeah. Moving on. Right. Yeah.

Amy (11:54)
Yeah, it doesn't mean there's not well what is this you just batted me away when I came to smell you. So what does that mean about our relationship? Just like okay, not in the mood, got it, I'll go nap somewhere else.

Erin (12:12)
But they don't start acting differently and they don't start suppressing themselves or their expression.

Amy (12:20)
At all.

Erin (12:21)
They are who they are forever.

Amy (12:25)
And they don't mm I mean I don't know that this is true or not, but I don't imagine that they even think about it.

Erin (12:34)
Why would they, right? We are conditioned to think about it. That's all we think about. I'll speak for myself, but that's I'm constantly monitoring myself.

Amy (12:44)
Yes, but

Erin (12:46)
And adjusting.

Amy (12:50)
Instead of the

Okay, I'm gonna see if I can put this together. Because if you're an individual who is individually responsible for the things that you do in the world.

And that's separate from other people.

Then everything has to be controllable and predictable. You you have to be controllable and predictable.

But nature is not that way at all.

Erin (13:29)
Mm-mm.

Amy (13:35)
And it's interesting to think about even when we are individualizing and siloing ourselves, we're also still having an effect and being affected by we're interdependent on everything around everything.

Erin (13:56)
Yeah.

Amy (14:03)
But we still try to pretend if I'm good and right and nice and

then the randomness of the rest of it won't happen to me.

Erin (14:18)
Right, right. And if you have the right status and the right color of skin and the right sexual orientation, you know, it just gets so small. We get so siloed.

Amy (14:48)
But it never works.

Erin (14:52)
I mean, I even as I was talking, as I was using my hands to demonstrate smaller, I felt so much constriction in my body. It's like the light just gets diminished more and more diminished. The light that difference brings, you know, as we try to fit into these smaller, smaller right boxes, it's just it disappears.

Amy (15:24)
And it doesn't

Like the constriction of that.

I I'm I'm always amazed that we just agree to

Erin (15:38)
Yeah.

Yeah, there's so many unspoken agreements.

Amy (15:46)
Yeah.

Erin (15:47)
You do.

Amy (15:51)
Like if you and okay, if you and I met in person, right? Like, my god, it's you, right? That's how I would feel, but it would just be kind of like, hey, yeah, nice to meet you. Yeah, okay, let's go over here.

Erin (16:10)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (16:11)
Because there's not there's

Erin (16:13)
Yeah.

Amy (16:14)
not permission to be like, my God. Because then it's like, what are you doing?

Erin (16:24)
Right. You broke the the unspoken agreement of how adults are supposed to act.

Do you have a squishmallow? She just had like three questions we could ask when we meet someone in person. Do you have a squishmallow? Okay, you're cool.

Amy (16:46)
But then that's another way of right how controlling your environment.

I want to be around like minded people. And so

But then you look in the woods and it's like, well, there's moss and here's a rock and then here's a weed and then here's a tree. And then that's all just in the environment together. And some things don't thrive in that environment also.

But is that a is that part of

do you sometimes I wonder if we over control for things being

what am I trying to say?

Like everything has to be able to be here.

I just sometimes I feel like like there's

Can can monoculture also be requiring so much difference?

Erin (18:07)
Mm.

Amy (18:08)
Does that make sense? I can say it in another way.

Erin (18:11)
Yeah, yeah. Say it say it another way.

Amy (18:16)
Like

If you're a cactus, you don't live in

Upstate New York.

say on top of a mountain, whatever. Like there are environments and ecologies that make sense for beings.

And so it feels like we're at at

opposite ends of the spectrum is like, well either it all has to be the same or every freaking thing has to be here or it's not fair.

Erin (19:04)
That's so interesting, yeah.

Mm.

Going back to nature, I have been watching Anthony Bourdain's Parts Unknown.

Amy (19:22)
Are you kidding me?

Erin (19:23)
No.

Amy (19:24)
Cause that's what we are watching like

That's so weird.

Erin (19:30)
That's so weird because it came out in like twenty twelve or twenty thirteen Yeah. I'm on season two.

Amy (19:37)
Okay, we just finished two.

Erin (19:39)
my gosh. Okay. Then the episode, I believe it was Denmark.

Amy (19:46)
Uh-huh.

Erin (19:47)
And they were talking to the chef who had was growing all of like they were eating moss. And so the field used to be monoculture. They grew one thing and I can't remember what it was, but they had to work really hard to grow one thing and eliminate everything else, right? And then when

They let it just kind of go back to nature. They grew all these really cool things that you can eat and taste good and they all taste different. and not everything grew there. But

How do I how do I get back? How do I get back there? It's like enough grew there to make a meal. Right? Like enough when they just let it be how it was, supposed to be naturally, it was like amazing.

Amy (20:49)
And it wasn't that's sort of where the monoculture idea came from is because of watching that episode.

Erin (20:58)
No way. Yeah.

Amy (21:00)
Just really bizarre.

Erin (21:02)
We

have so many synchronicities. That's really

Amy (21:08)
It feels like dangerous ground to me. Like when you st when we start talking about, well, these are the things that grow here, and not everything grows here because it's not the right environment for that. And it feels like my training tells me that that is not an okay thing to talk about. Because then you start talking about deciding.

what environments are right and what environments are wrong for people, plant beings, etcetera.

And then my brain went too but also like is that is that

Is that something that's decided?

Erin (21:57)
Whether it's right or wrong. Yeah.

Amy (21:59)
Like nature just evolves.

Erin (22:03)
Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean that to me I I love that example so much because it they look like weeds, what ended up growing in that field. Yes.

Amy (22:14)
Like nobody would value it, nobody would care.

Erin (22:16)
Right. And now they're the basic ingredients of the most famous restaurant in the world or the best restaurant in the world or something like that. It's like, yes. When I think of work and how this relates to work, and I think of the decades I spent trying to fit into corporate America, I thought that's I thought that was like the goal, right?

You dress this way, you work this way, you're around, you know, you network, like so many things do not fit me and they never will. But in trying to fit myself into that, I became such a distorted version of my true self. Right. Like there wasn't enough fertilizer or miracle grow. I don't know. There wasn't enough.

to ever make that a fit in that environment. And it's only in the past couple of years that I've been able to say that's okay.

It's okay. I can let go of that. Just because there's like this, I so I got the idea somewhere that that was a measure of success. it doesn't mean it's true. It's okay to, you know, create my own environment. That's taken years.

Amy (23:49)
And that we don't everyone does not thrive in the same environments.

And also that your environment that you thrive in can change.

Erin (24:10)
Should change, right?

Amy (24:11)
I mean, I just think it's like

it's like deciding who you are and then that's just who I'm gonna be forever. life is I mean

In human time, life is long. Yeah.

Erin (24:34)
Yeah.

Amy (24:40)
What would you have done differently?

when you were in that environment and not thriving. What do you think would have changed it?

Erin (24:50)
Gosh, self-compassion would have been huge. Self-compassion, you know, just accepting.

to

Accepting that how I work, and I don't mean my occupation, but how my brain works, my energy,

accepting myself because I think I went the opposite way of just trying to like force force be be harder on yourself. Right. Like

try harder.

Amy (25:42)
Yes,

Erin (25:44)
for this thing that I didn't really even want. But I don't at the you know, what could I have done differently? I don't know. I think that's a great question to think about.

Do you have an example like that where you would have done something differently?

Amy (26:07)
Mean, I think it's like

What I think about is if I had seen my experience as gathering information versus I'm be I this is a judgment of who I am as a person.

Erin (26:27)
Yes.

Amy (26:29)
Because I think about like you know, school I hated school. I was good, I got good grades, I didn't care, I didn't try, and I still was able to succeed.

And I have kids who had the same experience. Like, I can I can learn and get good grades, but this sucks.

And it's it's more of a moral failing than actually like looking at your little t like if you go to you know, whatever the plant store and you're like, okay, so this is all right, this is full sun, so that's not gonna work in my yard because my yard's all shade. So I'm not gonna buy this plant that has to have full sun and stick it in my yard because I just want it to grow. Well, I want this plant, so I'm just gonna put it there.

Erin (27:27)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (27:29)
And it'll it could probably limp along.

But is it gonna be the fullest expression of itself?

Erin (27:41)
Right. Is it gonna thrive? No. Yeah.

Amy (27:43)
No.

That's what I think about is like, but all of those things were judgments about who I was as a person. That, you know, okay, I I went to college, yes, but I don't this is so overwhelming and terrifying. All I can do is get fucked up.

Erin (28:07)
Yeah.

Amy (28:08)
I can't, I can't understand how have what I'm supposed to be doing here. I don't get it. And so I'm just gonna party until I get kicked out.

Or drop out. And so I dropped out.

Erin (28:27)
love that you said the information gathering. That's something that's come with age and time. That's not how I used to think at all. But I think going back to control, it's we had one measure of success.

Or you know,

Amy (28:44)
Yes.

Erin (28:45)
standards. It was so like binary.

Amy (28:54)
If you can be obedient and sit still and do what you're told.

You're good.

Erin (29:03)
Get good grades, get good grades. You know, that really resonates because I got good grades, but I didn't learn shit. I learned how to get good grades.

Amy (29:14)
Yeah, or what I was interested in, we c I couldn't keep going on that because like we had to move on. So if I'm like, this part of biology is really interesting to me, well too bad, because we're off to the next thing.

We're gonna and we're also gonna control how you learn, what you learn and how you learn. And so if you're a person who doesn't learn well through someone just explaining stuff to you.

Then you're fucked. Cause your whole your whole education is based on someone standing up in front of you and telling you information.

That does not work in my world.

Erin (30:09)
Mm-hmm. How do you learn best?

Amy (30:14)
I learn best by doing. So I have to do it. I have to feel it. I have to try it. I have to do it over and over and over again.

s example like if someone else is doing it too, and they're

They're teaching it to me, but we're also doing it together and it's very participatory. Then I can like, okay, so you did that. Okay, so I'm gonna do that. Or, okay, that's what this is about. Now I need to be able to ask 20 questions about that one thing because I'm not sure I get it. And so I need to I need to walk around the whole structure and okay, what's in here? Okay, well, what about?

If this happens, then what happens to that? Okay, now let's look in there. So I have to be able to ask a lot of questions. And also just be in contact like

Almost like what we were talking about before, what is the what is the expression of my body with this knowledge?

Erin (31:24)
Yeah. And it sounds like you have to be curious and not just like intellectually curious, but like with your whole being doing it and you're asking a question as you come up to it. But I'm so curious about curious about what curiosity like your relationship with curiosity was as an as a kid in school being undiagnosed. Autism. Yeah.

Yeah. Especially

Amy (31:55)
No.

Erin (31:57)
if you were smart and you got good grades. It was just like you stayed under the radar. Mm-hmm.

Amy (32:06)
And also, I mean, as you know, a girl in the seventies, you don't you be too smart. You need to shshshshsh

So being someone who was, you know, outspoken and emotive, I learned real fast, nope, you don't question adults and you don't all of this big stuff does not work in this world. Like this and to be okay in this environment, you need to

Not know too much, don't be too curious, don't ask too many questions, just just enough.

to not get in trouble.

Erin (32:53)
Yeah.

Amy (32:54)
So you end up in this very tiny little sliver.

is what it what it feels like to me.

Erin (33:06)
Yeah. And then you go out in the world and you just don't run up to doors to show your excitement anymore. Cause it's it's too much.

Amy (33:19)
It makes me think about all the things that are in my house, which is like everything here, everything means something in my house. And

It's just funny that the my environment is an express is an expression of me. And so that's how I learned to be able to express myself. But at the same time, sometimes I'll be like, Is this really me? Like, do I really like this? And then I look around, I'm like, Yeah, your whole house is full of stuff like this. you know what I mean?

Erin (33:55)
Yeah,

I do.

Amy (33:59)
Not knowing, that not knowing,

It makes me think about how control and one way of doing things makes you doubt the things that make you you.

Erin (34:14)
Well, like you said, the sliver, you have your fingers, you know, an inch apart. You end up just going along in this sliver, and that's you. That's what's acceptable. That's what becomes acceptable. And how could you not internalize that? It's not like, I just, you know, fit inside the sliver out in the world. You start doing that at home or when you're choosing things to decorate your home or express yourself.

I find myself wondering the same thing. Is do I really like this? Or is this where did this come from? Feeling like there's probably so much more.

I can't access yet. Maybe never. I don't know.

Amy (34:57)
Yeah. Well, and also it reminds me of this conversation I was listening to with this woman, Nora Bateson, and they're talking about where is the edge of you.

Erin (35:09)
Mm.

Amy (35:11)
And that's what that like when you did that that reminded me of that of that conversation. And another of the people was talking about if if I eat an apple, when does the apple where does the apple end and where do I begin?

Erin (35:30)
Yeah.

Amy (35:34)
But we're taught that everything's are separate.

Erin (35:46)
Mm.

And that's the furthest thing from the truth.

Amy (35:56)
R exactly.

Erin (35:59)
Right.

Amy (36:01)
I'm also curious how you learn best.

Erin (36:06)
you know, I used to say like by reading or that I'm a visual learner, but I actually have learned that I am way more tactile, kinesthetic. Like I I think reading and or watching is like a I've almost used it as a way to avoid learning.

Like I used to be a lifeguard when I was like 17 at a water park and we went through this, you know, extensive training. And I read everything and listened to the lectures and did all of that. But when it was time to practice CPR on someone, I froze. You know? And I had to get through that and had to actually like.

put what I'd read, I'd had I had to apply it. I mean, it was like a matter of life and death. I probably wouldn't have done it. I was just like, this is hard. Or I don't remember the steps or whatever it was. Or, you know, everyone's watching me. but that was such a powerful experience because I actually learned it once I did it. It was like not the reading and the that was like a comfort.

You know, like I know all about it. But doing it was like, now I know about it. I know how to do this now.

Amy (37:45)
Because it's in your body.

Erin (37:46)
Yeah, it's in my body, it's in my muscle memory.

That's so a lot. Sorry.

Amy (37:59)
No, no.

Like to go to a new place is really hard for me because I don't know how the place operates.

Like, where do you park? Where's the door? What do you do when you go inside? And so that just thinking about that makes me think even more about how like the experience of with your body, with your senses.

Erin (38:31)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (38:33)
How that then creates the

Like a more a more almost like more connected to the world.

Erin (38:49)
Yeah.

Absolutely. Gosh, that's that's a great way thinking about eating the apple and when does it become part of you?

It's a whole sensory experience.

Amy (39:13)
Experience.

Erin (39:17)
It's that's living.

Amy (39:20)
And also like when was it not part of you?

Erin (39:24)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Interesting.

It's really interesting.

Amy (39:40)
It gets really big, it's really it's hard to could to contemplate that actually as just like even though like we're connected right now to everything in the entire universe.

the people things we can't see, can't even imagine.

Erin (40:12)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (40:15)
It's still all part of

Us and we are part of it.

That's really not controllable.

Erin (40:30)
Exactly. But what is controllable is when you think you're separate.

When you think in terms of everything separate, like you don't have a relationship with an apple, but you always do.

Amy (40:48)
Always

Erin (40:49)
Wow.

Mm-hmm.

Amy (41:10)
Wonder what it what does it serve?

And I don't mean in like a

Like the way we do things is bad kind of way.

'Cause I really try to think about things not from right or wrong, good and bad, but what's here and then being in relationship with what's what's here.

And the thing I come back to a lot is that everything goes so fast it's hard to I mean, just in that moment of like both of us just going into where this is such a big thought.

How do you even soak that in?

Erin (42:13)
Right.

Amy (42:20)
And even the urge of but and we okay, but we're empty space, we're having a conversation. Don't don't let things if you're a good conversationalist, you keep the conversation going.

Erin (42:40)
Right, and I wanna think about the apple. Right. Like that is such a yummy thought.

Amy (42:51)
And it feels like that's what happened to me learning at school. I would hear something and be like, holy shit, I just wanna sit in this until I'm ready to move on.

Erin (43:02)
Yeah.

Yeah. And the class had moved on a long time ago.

Amy (43:09)
Yeah.

Amy, are you paying attention? No.

Erin (43:14)
I mean

Not to this realm. It's rich up here. That's what I'm paying attention to.

Amy (43:31)
And I wonder okay, this will go even further down the swirl of this, which is like and I wonder why that's why so many people intellectualize instead of

experience the whole world th with all of your body, but because by thinking you can you can outwardly still be participating.

Erin (44:00)
Hmm. Is that a form of control?

I think it can be overwhelming to participate with your whole body all the time. Like I'm going back to the lifeguard example. It's like that took a while for me to come out of the books and into like my hands on someone's chest.

It's a lot. Mm-hmm.

Amy (44:33)
It's like, I took a contact improv class over like several months. And it's really hard to be without words and only in physical contact or energetic contact with people for

I mean the class was two hours and by the time it was done, it was just like

But it was amazing also.

And so there's so many things that can't be said with words.

That we're translating all the time, but we just don't know that we are because

Intellect and words are the ways that we translate the world.

Erin (45:32)
Mm-hmm.

Right. That's like one of the unspoken agreements.

Hmm. That's exhausting.

Amy (45:51)
It makes the first thing I think of is is that why religion made it bad to have a body?

Erin (46:00)
Ow, yeah.

Yeah.

Amy (46:14)
physical sensation, emotions, feelings, externalizing, also externalizing control.

Erin (46:26)
Say more.

Amy (46:27)
Like

with religion, God is like God, Jesus, whoever, whatever you believe in, but it's a it's an entity outside of you that controls what happens to you and like

You need to gear your behavior so that you make this entity happy.

Erin (46:56)
Mm.

Yeah. And part of doing your behavior is controlling your body. Mm-hmm.

Wow, yeah.

Amy (47:10)
And controlling your circumstances and controlling situations.

And needing certainty, needing guarantee, needing things to be the same, needing them to be predictable.

Erin (47:25)
Mm. There's that constriction again. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Self expression is not encouraged.

Amy (47:35)
Doubt, randomness, happenstance.

Because you can't it's not controllable.

Erin (47:50)
Mm.

Amy (47:57)
And then you just get a whole world full of people who are trying to be

funnel down into this one idea of what a valuable life is.

Erin (48:11)
Yeah. Yeah.

Amy (48:19)
kinda feel like my brain's gonna explode.

Mm-hmm.

Erin (48:30)
I kinda love it. Uh-huh.

Amy (48:36)
And just imagine if this is how we spent some of our time is just like

wondering and there's not a purpose it's just it's picking something up and look at that I'm just gonna look at this from different ways

Erin (49:06)
Yeah, something you never thought to look at. But look at what we've questioned today, just in pondering. We've we've questioned the purpose of religion. We've questioned how you learn, how that affects the rest of your life.

these are things that aren't

They're like so important. They're like the elephant in the room that we just don't ever really look at because we're, you know.

Amy (49:44)
Busy.

Erin (49:45)
We're subconsciously s all trying to like, whether we want to or not, you know, like I'm actively trying to not be in a box. But that's like hard because I've been so focused on that my whole life, getting to some in some kind of box.

Amy (50:09)
You just said that so perfect perfectly. you spend your whole life trying to get into the box.

But then what happens when you get in there?

Erin (50:30)
I mean, I have no idea. I don't even think I'm, you know, it's like even realizing you don't want to be in the box. Like, wow, I can that's a choice. That's an option. Yeah.

Amy (50:51)
Yeah, that that's an option.

Is is sort of like

It's not a thing that

is out in the world enough of like

That you can still be part of

everything and you don't have to be

In line with everything.

Erin (51:34)
It's that knowing that you are already part of everything. You were born part of everything. You the you don't have to strive to be part of everything. You just are. But we're fed this idea that we're not, that we have to try to be part of everything, this prescribed everything.

That's where I am in it.

Amy (52:03)
Yeah, and to earn your place you have to earn your place in it. And the way you earn your place in it is to be this, this, this, and this. And if you're not that, then you spend your life trying to be that, which isn't wrong.

Erin (52:21)
Right. It's not wrong.

Amy (52:24)
If that's

What you want.

Erin (52:31)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (52:32)
And can you just want part of that?

Erin (52:36)
Yeah, you get to choose. You get to choose what part you want. Yeah. That's that's a really great point.

Amy (52:44)
And it's what makes life so interesting is like, God, we have all these things in common, but also then we also are different in these ways. And that's like, I want to know more about that. Why why do you see it that way? What do you like about it? No, I don't think that's for me. But does that eliminate a whole person just because you don't agree on everything?

Erin (53:12)
Yeah, I think part of the prescription for control is the labeling things good, bad, right, wrong, you know, all caps. Yeah. Yeah. Instead of like you were saying earlier, gathering information, being curious, like it's

Can it all be here?

Amy (53:38)
in the complexity of every changing moment.

Without having to

I don't know, be a be so rigid in the way that you see things that you are unmovable.

And still have like steady ground to stand on at the same time.

Erin (54:07)
Mm-hmm.

Right. What is your steady ground? Mm-hmm. I think that's an important question.

Amy (54:20)
Yeah. I'm writing it. I'm gonna write that down.

Erin (54:23)
Me too.

And I'm gonna make notes about what that actually means. Cause when I come back to it without context, I'm gonna be like, what was I thinking? What were we talking about?

Amy (54:51)
And that's kind of what part of the fun of it is too, is

If it's just something that's unfolding instead of something that has to be like marketable or meaningful or like can it can it just unwind and the threads of knowledge that stay and come through will just stay and come through. If that makes any sense.

Erin (55:21)
Totally

does. I don't know what lens I'm gonna be in when I come back to this question. Right. But like.

the threads will still be there. And what other threads will I see?

Amy (55:39)
And also that the threads like as amazing as they are, they are also work and wondrous. So to be able to put them down and pick them up again. Like we don't have to always be in this really curious exploratory space. It's such a fun place to visit. But then like there's part of me that just wants to watch, you know, parts unknown and see a dude like running around the world. Yay.

Erin (56:07)
Right. Yeah, it's pretty energy costly too. Mm-hmm.

Amy (56:13)
Yeah, yeah.

Erin (56:15)
I love that we're doing it. You know, I think sometimes I avoid energy costly things.

Amy (56:26)
It's both well it's both for me it's both costly but also like it it's a good like it's like it's working the mu the parts of my ways of thinking that don't often get squeezed and lifted. And it feels like it it gets more fun to just sort of like, okay, we're let's just follow and see.

Where does this go? And then we just end up in a place and it's like, okay, well, we've been talking for an hour and that's good.

Erin (57:03)
Yeah. It's it's like mental exercise. It's I mean I love exercise. I love physical exercise. So that's I know not everyone does, but that's for me, right? Like, I love moving my body and getting sore and seeing what I can do.

Amy (57:23)
Yeah.

Erin (57:24)
So this is like a delicious equivalent.

Amy (57:27)
Yeah, I love it as well. All right, good.

Erin (57:31)
Right. We'll do

Amy (57:33)
Again.

Erin (57:34)
fast.

Amy (57:36)
It always does. Erin

Erin (57:37)
Yeah. Great.

Amy (57:38)
thank you so much. I

Erin (57:40)
Yeah.

Amy (57:40)
just really appreciate our conversations. They're just like it's so fun to like be able to be in that space where I love to be just like, and what about this? what about this?

And not feel like, or I mean, but maybe you might not understand what I mean or whatever, whatever. But just just have a fun conversation and see where it goes.

Erin (58:09)
Yes, me too. Me too. I love that we don't use qualifiers and this might sound dumb or I feel like that's how I generally talk because I don't have this space. This space is so valuable. Thank you.

Amy (58:29)
Yeah, I agree. All right. Good. Well well, I'm gonna see you next week.

Erin (58:35)
Sounds good.

Amy (58:35)
Okay.

Erin (58:36)
Okay, bye.

a (58:42)
Thanks for taking the time to listen to Rebelling. Looking forward to seeing you next time.